Own Your Heart Surgery Journey: Embracing Responsibility for Healing and Positive Mindset

Boots Knighton [: 00:00:02

Hey, it's your heart buddy, boots. Thank you so much for coming back to open heart surgery with boots. I'm here every Tuesday bringing you amazing interviews with incredible souls who've either had open heart surgery or are a provider helping we heart patients go through heart surgery. And today I get to bring you an amazing provider that I have just recently met, and I think you're going to love her. I'd love to introduce you to doctor Kim Pirano. She has her doctorate in acupuncture and she has so much more to offer beyond that. We have the most amazing conversation that I would have benefited from prior to my heart surgery. And I know that you will find this helpful as well.

Boots Knighton [: 00:00:56

And this is for anyone facing any challenge in their life. It's not just for heart surgery patients. So please, will you first of all subscribe if you haven't? And then number two, will you share this episode with someone you know will benefit from it? And thirdly, have you left a review of this podcast on whatever platform you're listening to on today? It means the world to us when I get to go back and see these reviews and see how this podcast is affecting people in real time. Just a brief overview of Doctor Kim Pirano and I's conversation. We touch on some really incredible topics that we just don't talk about with our doctors necessarily, like how to mentally manage being diagnosed with a heart disease or congenital defect. We talk about how to prepare and how to manage the pain. We also talk about how to be comfortable when things are seemingly out of control. I mean, it is just such a juicy episode.

Boots Knighton [: 00:02:17

Oh, and last but not least, how to keep ourselves safe when we are feeling scared and desperate and say, company or a person is providing a miracle cure, it is so easy to fall prey to these quick and easy health schemes out there. I know I did. When you're feeling so terrible and you just want to live and you see this miracle cure, it is such a normal, natural instinct to want to jump to that. And Doctor Piranho walks us through how to keep ourselves safe, safe in that. So you're going to love this conversation. I cannot wait to get this to you. So let's get right to it. Welcome to another amazing episode of Open Heart Surgery with boots.

Boots Knighton [: 00:03:12

I am so glad you came back to join me for another guest interview, and today I am so excited to bring a new friend of mine to you. Listeners. I want to introduce to you Kim Perano from Oakland, California. Kim, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with fellow heart patients today.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:03:36

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Boots Knighton [: 00:03:37

So, Kim, you come with an incredible story, and then also an incredible amount of experience in the world of acupuncture. Just set the scene for us with your expertise and what has brought you to this moment in your life.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:03:56

Sure. So I'm doctor Kim Perano. I'm a doctor of acupuncture and chinese medicine. A licensed acupuncturist and hypnotherapist and coach kind of do a bunch of different things that have somehow, over the years, like, managed to merge together in a way to create, like, a really holistic healing offering. I've been in practice since 2010. I started as just an acupuncturist. I had a clinic in San Francisco, eventually moved that clinic to Marin, and then I moved it back to the East Bay. And over the pandemic was when I sort of started doing more of this coaching and hypnotherapy.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:04:32

Because it's really hard to do acupuncture on Zoom. It's not necessarily impossible. And so I've kind of merged all of these things, all of my own kind of personal healing journey and experience, into a way to really kind of help support patients and clients, like, through major life changes. Like, I work with a lot of people who have chronic illness and chronic pain, things that can't be cured, in some cases, terminal patients. And also leg of my practice is kind of focused on cult survivors, religious trauma, spiritual abuse, which with my experience in this alternative health and wellness field, we also learned that those two worlds kind of commingle quite a bit more than we would normally think. So we're kind of looking at how can we help people, or how can I help people approach their healing, like, with a lens towards optimistic realism and also keeping you safe, like finding treatments that are beneficial, things that work for you, things that don't harm you. And then what do we do when there isn't a treatment as well?

Boots Knighton [: 00:05:38

Optimistic realism. I love that because there's a. There is, like, the reality sandwich of how we heart patients are. Some of us are born with congenital defects. There's also. It's better to be in the mindset of hope than in the mindset of despair. But yet you have, like, this glaring issue that you can't change how you came out of the factory, right?

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:06:05

Totally.

Boots Knighton [: 00:06:06

Yeah. Well, we're going to get into that, but I have to just take one quick step back. I need to apologize. I left off the doctor part when I introduced you, so I am sorry. Doctor Ferrano, I'm so terrible. So she is a doctor, everyone. She is legit. She deserves to be listened to.

Boots Knighton [: 00:06:23

So that matters to me. But yes. Now back to what we were going to talk about first, which is, yeah, how do we manage that? Reality sandwich. You said terminal illness. Obviously we heart patients aren't necessarily. I mean, we're all terminal, right? None of us are going to live forever, but how the terminal is going to look is different for everybody. So we heart patients are. And I'm just going to speak for my own personal experience.

Boots Knighton [: 00:06:52

And, I mean, I've talked to enough heart patients now to know we are just more aware of our mortality. And we get like at least a yearly reminder when we have to get our echoes and cardiac mris or CT scans or whatever. So it's just more in our face and it is a lot to manage. So coach us on how to manage that.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:07:14

Oh, that's like a. Such a big question, right? How do we manage this?

Boots Knighton [: 00:07:19

Let's just dive right in, shall we? And to the deepest end of the pool, right?

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:07:28

I mean, we're already in it, right? Yeah. There's definitely so, so many different, like, vantage points we can take on these things. So I mentioned optimistic realism earlier and that's like one way we can look at things. I consider myself sort of an optimistic nihilist. Nihilism, sort of the place we get to lots of times when, like, shit hits the fan in our life, right? You get that new diagnosis that changes everything. Like, your parent passes away, like, you lose your job or like, these big things happen and then we question everything. We start going like, what's the point of anything? And it can be a really dark place for a lot of people. And usually we kind of even start out there regardless, because whatever you thought was true no longer works, right? It's not.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:08:18

It doesn't paint the picture of your life anymore. Optimistic nihilism is sort of like flipping that on its head. And I remember when I was first heading into my first nihilist period, there was a meme and it was like this little stick figure guy and he was like floating out in the void of nothing. And it was like the first photo was like, nothing means anything. There's no point in anything. And the second photo, he's covered in rainbows and glitter and he's like, nothing means anything. So we have this ability to like, the story we tell ourselves can totally change, not necessarily the outcome, which is something I think we can get really hung up in and that can devolve even more so, but we can change our experience of reality that way.

Boots Knighton [: 00:09:05

Right?

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:09:06

So we start leading to, like, nothing matters. Oh, it said nothing matters, so it was like, nothing matters. It was like all of this despair. And the second picture in the meme was nothing matters. And he was, like, glowing in rainbows, right? Like, if nothing matters, that means we get to choose what matters. We get to choose what matters or how it matters and really make that story up for ourselves. And for me, that's been a very freeing vantage point to take on things, because it's like, oh, like, we stop a lot with, like, how we're moving forward in our life because, oh, what if so and so thinks this? Or what if this happens? Or what if x, y, and z? And, like, in the grand scheme of it, it probably doesn't matter. So that can be a very freeing way to just shift gears in our mindset a little bit.

Boots Knighton [: 00:09:56

I've seen that meme. It is such a good meme. I'm also thinking about the Big Lebowski, the nihilist, and the Big Lebowski. But if anyone's seen that movie, it's one of my favorite movies of all time. Yes, and I love how you worded the story we tell ourselves. I've talked about this several times with past heart patients on this podcast, and again, I can only speak for myself here. When I got my diagnosis, I was 42 and of three different defects in my heart. And I had lived up until then, I had lived this belief that, you know, I was fine, and then to find out I had three heart defects, and then I just immediately overnight.

Boots Knighton [: 00:10:40

You're right. Like, it was an overnight, like, change in how I viewed myself. And I went from being strong and healthy and an athlete to defective, and that's what I just told myself. And it. And it really caused me to go off a cliff of despair for several months. I had lived there for several months until, with enough therapy and EMDR and just processing the actual total shock of it all, I was able to pull myself out. You know, looking back on it. I mean, I had to go through the stages of grief to get to where I'm at now in my life, but.

Boots Knighton [: 00:11:18

And it was like multiple, like, visits back down into the pit of despair and revisiting the story of I'm defective. But then after heart surgery, and I survived, and I have this whole new perspective, I can look back on it. And even now, I still have defects looming, and I. It is an active choice to choose a higher storyline. I think of it as a higher and a lower, like, vibration. Like, either I can be just aware and cognizant and take good care of my heart, or I can be in a pit of despair and tell myself I'm defective and I'm not going to live very long. And it's. I know I'm not the only heart patient who has to actively choose the higher storyline.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:12:04

It's.

Boots Knighton [: 00:12:05

It's hard.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:12:06

Yeah.

Boots Knighton [: 00:12:07

And I just love that whole notion, like, nothing matters. And as someone who's recovering from so much trauma in my life, and I've come so far, there was a time in my life where I did hold on with, like, gripped, you know, fingers and white knuckles. Right. And everything mattered. And I, you know, you could even say in our. And this isn't a political podcast, and I'm not at all insinuating that we go there, but just in today's climate, also, I'd see people white knuckling, you know, politics and the gut, the environment and our health. And I've done enough work. Now I can let go, and I don't get the white knuckles.

Boots Knighton [: 00:12:51

But for those who are newly diagnosed with heart stuff or just afraid of the world or whatever, how do you. We let go and trust that nothing matters and that that's a good thing and that we can choose a higher storyline.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:13:09

Yeah. And that's, you know, it's a complicated answer always. Right. Because nothing matters, but everything matters simultaneously. So it's a lot of, like, yes and right. We have, like, this way of viewing it and this way that seem to be conflicting, and yet they're, like, both totally true because we can think about all of the different things. Right. It's like you as this individual, like, your impact on the climate might be very, very, very minuscule compared to the bigger picture of things, which makes us feel like nothing matters, but the bigger picture of things is important, and it totally does matter.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:13:45

So, like, how do we find that, like, fine balancing of different things. And so when we're, you know, bring it back to, like, being newly diagnosed with something that's really scary and feels like, oh, I don't have any choices here. Right? Because that element of choice feels like it gets ripped away. We don't have that choice anymore. And I have a little, like, graphic I use sometimes, and I call it the window of empowerment. And that window is also really slim because we can end up on either side of it. So before we end up in this window of empowerment, we're kind of in that victim mentality. Like, things are happening to me.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:14:27

Nothing matters. I can't do anything about it. X, Y, and Z. And that's really disempowering. That's like, I don't have any control at all, so why even bother? Or I don't have any control at all. Everything else is doing this. It's all of their faults. And so I don't have any responsibility.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:14:44

So we have to kind of move out of that into, like, I do have responsibility, and we do have responsibility, like, for our healing, for our mindset, in a sense. And to move into this space is where we look at things kind of with a broader lens. Right. It's like, if we're dealing with, like, childhood trauma for our parents, if those parents are deceased, like, they're never going to apologize to you. Like, is that the reason we choose not to do healing work? You want that apology or the other thing to change? Do I want my diagnosis to change so that I don't have to deal with it anymore? Do I accept what's going on? And it's like, that's. That first step is just, like, acceptance. And acceptance doesn't mean you like it. It just means we acknowledge that it exists, right? So we don't have to like it.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:15:33

We can totally hate it. That's completely valid. But we accept, like, this is my reality. My finances are messed up. I have to look at my bank account to even begin to formulate a plan of how I might change it. Right.

Boots Knighton [: 00:15:44

We keep ignoring it.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:15:46

We don't do that. That's how we kind of move out of or towards that window of empowerment where we're accepting our reality. We're acknowledging that it exists. We're saying, okay, yes, this is what's happening. We move out of that kind of denial phase, and we move into, like, yes, I do have the ability to control, in a sense, like, some aspects of it. Like, I can't control the outcome of the disease. Right. If it's a terminal disease or chronic disease, like, we can do certain treatments, we can take certain steps, we can make lifestyle changes.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:16:19

And this is something I talk about all the time. Like, we don't have control of our health. That's, like, a completely non controllable aspect. And people get all up in arms of this, like, oh, like, you can lose weight if you just eat less calories. It's like everybody's bodies work very differently. So we can do all of the lifestyle changes, but we don't have the control of, like, how that actually pans out. Like, yeah, there's an 80% chance if you eat more carrots. You'll have more beta carotene in your system or whatever it is.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:16:51

I'm just making that up as an example. But it doesn't always pan out that way. So we can do all the things. It's not always going to create the outcome we want. Lots of times it does, and that's where we're in that window of empowerment. We're, like, choosing the things that we can do and the things we have control over and where we push this too far on the other end also, which I don't think is talked about often enough, one of the tools I'll often use with clients is how can we kind of make meaning out of things that feel meaningless or pointless sometimes for some people, that's super empowering and helpful. I had a weird thing going on with my leg one time. It was like, nobody could diagnose it.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:17:34

Podiatrist, Pt. Like, nobody. They're like, we have no idea. My ankle was swelling up. It hurt really bad, and went to my other friend, who's an acupuncturist, and I kind of had the realization, like, it was on the gallbladder channel in the body. So the gallbladder in chinese medicine, if we, like, take a really metaphorical approach, like, gallbladder is all about making decisions, and it's not like I can't decide what to do. It's that, like, I need to actually put my foot forward and, like, make the decision, right. So at this point in my life, I was like, really? I knew I needed to break up with my boyfriend, but I didn't want to do it, right.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:18:11

So I was like, I knew the choice, but I wasn't acting on it. And for me, like, making that connection. And then I saw my acupuncturist. She, like, needled the area where it hurt. I hysterically cried for, like, 15 minutes, and, like, this problem was never a problem again. And I, like, broke up with my boyfriend, right? And I was like, so that was, like, making meaning out of it, right. We're taking in that, like, body, mind, spirit approach. We're starting to make meaning out of things.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:18:38

It gives us a semblance of, like, feeling like we have some more control over things when there's very. When there's not control we have. And that can be super empowering. It's not necessary all the time for, like, that kind of bigger healing to take place, but sometimes it is, and sometimes it's helpful. We can also take that mindset too far where then we start going. And I hear about this. Often with my clients where usually a well meaning friend or somebody's like, oh, you have liver problems because your unresolved anger issues, right? We start assigning our own blame, which then circles into that cycle of shame and guilt and all these things like, oh, if I only didn't eat steaks for 15 years of my life, then I wouldn't have this problem. Or if I only didn't do this, or x, Y, and z, we start blaming ourselves, which turns into an equally problematic place, which is why I say that window of empowerment is really slim.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:19:36

Before it, we're not taking accountability at all. And after it, we're really cycling in blame and shame, because now if I manifest and create my reality, then I'm manifesting this disease as well. And then it's all my fault because I'm so defective, because I can't do xyz. So we have to land in that. In that window to have that mindset shift that actually really is helpful.

Boots Knighton [: 00:20:01

I love how conversations just show up right on time.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:20:06

Yes.

Boots Knighton [: 00:20:07

And it is an active choice to stay in that window of empowerment, at least for me.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:20:13

Totally. And it's so easy for me. Slipping on the blame shame end of it is super easy to do because. And that's kind of wrapped up, like, part of my work with cults and religious spiritual trauma, stuff. Like, we see that happen a lot because that's part of where we take on some of these beliefs. Like, spirituality is super helpful. Like, finding greater meaning, belief in higher power, or whatever it is. Like, seeing that bigger picture, having greater awareness is, like, so beneficial, and then we can also take it too far, and then it kind of cycles in this self consuming kind of way.

Boots Knighton [: 00:20:50

Yeah. Wow. Okay, let's use that as a bit of a segue then. Speaking of consuming while we dance in this window of self empowerment to prepare for heart surgery, because I know I have several listeners right now who are preparing for heart surgery. They've reached out for help and support. We've got you and listeners. How can we use this skill of being in the window of empowerment to prepare for surgery and manage pain?

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:21:21

Yeah. So I think, like, first and foremost, like, whatever experience you're having is always totally valid and, okay, we can get. If we're in the, like, always positive mindset category, like, that can become really toxic right when we're ignoring other feelings and experiences we're having. So to just remember that, like, having fear, totally normal response, having anxiety, completely normal response. And then the question becomes, like, not, how do I make that go away. But how do I work with it instead? Which is a very different. You know, if we've never done kind of work like this before, it can feel really weird and different. Exercise I'll often have people do.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:22:01

Like, if we have pain, is to, like, close your eyes for a moment, find that part of pain in your body, and try to make it go away. Like, spend two minutes, like, fighting it, like, mentally, right? Like, how can I make this part of pain go away? What if I yell at it? We try to push it away. We try to get it out of our body. We ask it to leave. Like, whatever it is we're kind of doing mentally, and then take note of what you noticed. Like, does it feel worse? Does it feel better? Like, are you noticing it more? Are you noticing it less? And then take a few moments and find that part of pain and get really curious about it, like, a little four year old kid. Like, does it have a color? Does it have a voice? Does it have a smell? Does it go anywhere else? Does it have something to tell you? I call this, like, pretend like you took a tab of acid and let's talk to it. And that, like, even just that idea, like, is so powerful, sometimes we're just like, let's let go of all of the rules and just pretend like they don't exist and get really curious about something.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:23:11

Like, the wall in front of me has all this cool texture on it. Like, how does that feel? Like, why do I already know what it feels like without even touching it? When we start getting curious about things, we give them space to move. So most of the time when people do this exercise where we're kind of comparing and contrasting, like, trying to make it go away, trying to fight it, versus getting really curious about it, that experience of pain changes. And sometimes it's a pain relief that happens. Sometimes not, but often. Like, the experience, the way we talk about it in our mind, or the way we experience the pain, the story we tell ourselves about it shifts. And as such, like, it doesn't become so problematic anymore. One of the things that I do with hypnotherapy is often, like, working with people who have these, like, chronic symptoms that come up.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:23:58

So it might be pain might be, like, twitching or tinnitus, like, your ear ringing, right? Those are annoying. They're super annoying. Things that drive you nuts. And we'll all notice, like, for any menstruating humans out there, like, the week before you get your period, everything is much more bothersome, right? There's things we can't ignore anymore. And that's, like, in part due to the physiological state that we're in and just how we're experiencing things differently. So the same stuff that used to not bother us drives us absolutely bonkers in that period of time.

Boots Knighton [: 00:24:34

Guilty.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:24:36

I was watching the queen's gambit last night, and then her first chess tournament. She gets her first period, and then they did such a great videography, like, storytelling of, like, the kid, like, combing his hair, and you could tell how irritated she was him, like, just combing his hair every move. But it's sort of the same idea, right, where it's like, if the story we're telling ourselves about the pain or the surgery that's coming up, and if it's, like, this constant thing we're fighting against, it's gonna drive us more nuts, we're gonna be more activated about it, and it becomes impossible to even try to change the story we're telling ourselves about it because we're gripped onto it. We are starting to white knuckle the problem, right? We're like, this is the problem, and I need it to go away. Absolutely. Right now, when we get curious, we, like, loosen the grip, and then it can move, then it can change. Then we can start to tell ourselves a different story. So when we're, like, preparing for surgery, which can be super terrifying, I myself am terrified of general anesthesia, and I always have weird medical stuff happen.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:25:45

Like, if it's weird, it's going to happen to me. So, like, I relate very personally to this question, right? Like, how do we undo it? Sometimes that can be making bigger meaning out of it, some people, right? The medical system is so sterile, so that, like, meaning is really removed, because it has to be. Right? Like, it would be really hard to be a surgeon, to cut into somebody's body and, like, be telling yourself all these magical stories about it or something having that kind of attachment. So all that meaning is very much purposely stripped away. So we get to add it back. We get to choose what it is. You can choose the story of, like, oh, I'm having this heart surgery, and it can be scary and terrifying, and my life might never be the same again. It can also be exciting and opening a door for possibilities.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:26:40

And my life might never be the same again. Right. Those things can be very different. There's also a lot of connection with how we have felt feelings and the story we tell about them. Like, the physical sensation that comes up often matches, like, a positive and a negative connotation. So if I'm like, really anxious about something. Physically, I feel in my body, like, butterflies in my stomach, like, buzzing, I need to move around, or I feel kind of jumpy. If I'm super excited about something, I kind of feel the same way.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:27:11

So we can start tracking back. The first step here is like, we're not going to be automatically able to just shift the story, but what if we just felt the feeling without the story, just noticing that sensation? What's coming up for me? What does it physically feel like? And it's always interesting because there's like, this work is. Seems like it should be really heady, but it's not where most of the process is just these simple steps of, like, how do I just feel it?

Boots Knighton [: 00:27:44

Yeah.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:27:44

And then be open to what shows up next. And then when we're doing that, it's easier to be curious. It might be easier to create that story. Yeah.

Boots Knighton [: 00:27:55

I wish I'd had this conversation with you before my heart surgery. I have an incredible therapist who's been in my life for over ten years now, and she was so great in getting me ready. And still your perspective is so needed. And I wrote down, you put it in a way I've been trying to sign words for the medical system is sterile because meaning is removed, because it has to be. And I realize I've been blaming them for that and being. I've been mad at the medical system for that. And you've helped me have more grace towards the medical system because. Yeah, I hadn't thought about it where, like, what if they did get wrapped up in the story? What would that mean for care? And, yeah, I've.

Boots Knighton [: 00:28:46

I love my surgeon, and I love every person who's ever helped me along the way. And now that I'm looking at it from the lens you just offered, I'm going to have more grace because I've been kind of mad at them for removing the meaning, but I also recently had a naturopath on that, was talking about the MTHFR mutation, and she was just saying, you know, like, we can't expect one practitioner, one doctor, one surgeon to have all the answers. And so this is just yet another example of us being in the driver's seat of our. Of our care. And by care, I mean caring for our mindset and how we choose to hold the reality of a heart journey, because it is a journey. It's not a destination, it is a journey. So, with all that being said, I think the next thing I wanted to talk to you about is how do we be more comfortable with being seemingly out of control. And notice I say seemingly because that's probably just an illusion anyway, but I think everything you just said applies.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:30:00

Yeah, definitely.

Boots Knighton [: 00:30:02

I don't know if there's more to add there, but I have a feeling you have something. You're so wise.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:30:08

I was just thinking, like, you know, this is another yes and question, right? It's like, oh, we have absolutely no control. And we have total control. But, like, total control. I don't know. We'll use the finger quotes on that one. Right? Like, you kind of don't. Some people will be like, you have complete control over how you think about things. And, like, no, we don't.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:30:28

And I think that acknowledgement helps a lot. Like, your body responds to things so much faster than your mind does.

Boots Knighton [: 00:30:38

Right.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:30:38

It's like you're walking down the dark alleyway and the hair stick up on the back of your neck, like, two minutes before you notice that there's, like, something crazy going on. Right. Your body responds way more. And I've. Some people use this as the argument against the complete idea of, like, free will. Like, that doesn't exist because you don't have control over how your body literally reacts to things, which informs how we think about things. For me, when I think about that, it's like, oh, my body is kind of doing its own thing, right? I don't. I don't get to have control over that.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:31:12

And then we can kind of, like, relax into it a little bit. In a sense, it is designed to stay alive. That's kind of the goal. And we don't have that sense of control. We're kind of fed the ideas that we do have all of this control or that we should have all of this control. Right. I think of, like, for some reason lately I've been obsessed with, like, waspy people because they feel to be, like, waspy. Like the.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:31:41

It's like rich people who are always really put together and they have cocktail hour, and they never talk about their feelings. Like, like, Charlotte from Sex and the City is like, oh, that's.

Boots Knighton [: 00:31:52

I've never heard of that term. Waspy. W A s p. Yeah, I think so. Oh, hilarious. I live near Jackson, Wyoming, so there's plenty of them here. Waspy people say more.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:32:09

So it's like, to me, that, like, stereotype kind of represents this, like, very put together, very in control person. So when I feel not in control, I'm like, oh, that sounds nice. Like, that's not my personality type whatsoever. Like, in no way, shape or form would that, like, even make sense. But it feels like it's very in control, because that's the illusion I have of what that lifestyle might be like, right?

Boots Knighton [: 00:32:35

It's what we see about it, what.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:32:38

It'S like internally for that person. Probably super stressful, right? If you're like, my house has to be picture perfect all the time, and I have to wear hard pants all the time. Ew. You're never walking outside. And stretchy clothes, which are so comfortable. So we're really fed this illusion that we have to be in control or that we are in control or that we're morally deficient or we failed if we're not in control. And that's a big one that comes up, is like, oh, if we have this. Or especially, like, wellness, health and wellness culture.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:33:10

I saw, like, a TikTok and guy was like, I spend $35,000 a year on all of this wellness stuff, and it's like, I get up at 04:00 a.m. i do my ice bath and my running and this and that, and I take all these fancy supplements, and it's this very obsessive control piece where they've gone, like, way far into it. And we're fed this idea that, like, that's the morally correct and good thing to do. And that if we have a disease or we have a problem with our body or it's defective or it didn't come out right. Like, that's our failing when it's, like, completely untrue and made up to sell you more stuff, usually. But the fact is, like, bodies are mortal, right? They're supposed to break down. They're supposed to get disease. We're supposed to die.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:33:57

Like, those are the things that happen. So we're really pushed into this belief that we have more control than we do, that we can change those outcomes, which creates a lot of stress. That's something that I see a lot in my practice, is we have this scary diagnosis. We want to do everything to fix it. We start doing, like, a really restrictive diet. We start seeing 17 different practitioners a week, and we're doing all these things to try to prevent anything from getting worse or to change the outcome, which is a normal reaction too, right? Like, being aware of our own mortality is absolutely terrifying. And the line's going to be different for everybody. Like, where is the line between where that is helpful behavior and where it's, like, harming us more, preventing us from spending that time with our family when maybe we are on limited time.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:34:50

So we have that balancing act to pick and choose where we put our focus. So I guess the first point in this whole conversation is, like, we have an illusion that we have more control than we do. We really don't. And not being in control is not a moral failing. You're not a bad person. If we don't have control, we're not failing at our life. We're not defective. Like, that's just.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:35:18

That's the realism piece of the puzzle. Like, that's how things are. And it's okay that that's how it is. So if we're going full force into, like, trying to control the outcome, trying to control everything. Like, how do we let go of that. Is scary and terrifying and very difficult. A lot of the time. We always have to think about pretty much everything in the, like, smallest steps possible, right? And this kind of comes, in a sense, it's sort of like, boundaries with ourselves, right? Like, what do I want to experience right now? What things help, that what things don't? And how do I really draw that circle around myself.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:36:00

To know what to lean into or not? And then to practice with it for me, like, as I was, like, learning boundaries, that was terrifying. That felt really out of control. Because while you're controlling your own choice, you're also leaving yourself open to, like, whatever happens, right? You say, I can't have somebody in my life who's doing x, y, and z. So I'm going to distance myself from you, right? Which is not the choice I want to make, but that's what it is, because that's the boundary I've set for myself. Like, their response is completely out of my control. So one way we can sort of start to get more comfort with being out of control is, like, how do we set boundaries? I think a lot of people relate to that as, like, being a kind of core issue. It's a difficult thing. Like, what happens if I did speak my truth? That's a really tough thing.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:36:57

When we're in chronic illness world, it's, like, because we feel often like nobody else can handle it. Where nobody wants to hear it. And, like. And, yeah, there are going to be those people in our life. Where we can only talk about the synth slim sliver of what our reality is like. But there are other people who can handle it. So it's that element of courage to just, like, show up as you and practice with that. Like, I'm going to either figure out what my values and needs are.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:37:26

And set boundaries around them. Maybe I'm just going to show up really authentically, like, with whatever's going on for me today. And that's kind of facing that unknown piece of things in a sense where we're saying, okay, like, this is me.

Boots Knighton [: 00:37:41

Being willing to be seen, being willing to be vulnerable, being willing to take up space. Exactly. How. How we are as we are in the moment and not apologizing for it.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:37:52

Absolutely. Yeah.

Boots Knighton [: 00:37:54

One final thing I wanted to touch on, and we were kind of getting to that, which is, okay, so when we do feel out of control, when we feel like we're hopeless, helpless, all the lower timeline, the lower storyline stuff, how do we stay safe from those promises out there on social media that we see from people who can promise you all this health and, you know, the golden chalice if you follow the specific diet and get into the sun and getting in the sun is actually really good. But like, you know, like all these. But I've. I've actually followed a few people on social media lately who are, like, almost being prophetic about it. And, you know, that is an immediate red flag for me. So keep us safe. Coach us on Doctor Kim, on how to stay safe, on not falling for miracle cures and finding the middle path.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:38:54

Totally. And that's like, the preface to this whole thing is like, we really have to learn this piece of a puzzle which is like that, like, active embodiment piece where I'm really connected with myself and how I feel and using that as the guideline to what I choose for myself. Because when I think about it, the times in my life where I've, like, you know, quote, fallen for that miracle cure or whatever it is, like, I've been very dysregulated in making that decision. And we can. This advice applies to literally everything in your entire life. It's dating, it's family, it's all of the things, right? And healthcare is one of those ones. And I think of it as we are in the wellness space, alternative wellness space, particularly. They're answering the unanswerable question.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:39:48

We touched on it earlier. Right? Like, medicine misses that. Like, allopathic medicine really misses the heart of the whole thing. Like, that connection that we really want to have, which is kind of purposeful so that they can do their job. And medicine is also very behind. Right. We have, like, long Covid right now. It's like, there's a lot of research going on.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:40:09

We don't really know. There's theories around why it's happening, but, like, we don't have the treatment for it yet. Right. Like, what do we do about it? It's missing. People have these experiences, we have these symptoms, we have these things. We feel like trash. Anything seems like a great idea to fix it, or we have a really scary diagnosis. Maybe the treatments for it are really scary, like open heart surgery, like a really long stint of chemotherapy.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:40:35

There's a lot of really scary, unpleasant medical treatments that we can do, and maybe we don't want to do that or there isn't a treatment for us. So we're gauging. Where are we at in this whole puzzle of things? But what this alternative wellness space promises is that answer to the unanswerable question. You have a disease. Nobody knows what it is or how to cure it. I do. That's the promise. I can fix this problem that nobody else even knows exists.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:41:07

That's how this trap opens, in a sense, for, like, opening it. It's also an industry where the barriers to entry as a practitioner are virtually non existent. So, like, I have a doctorate degree in acupuncture, chinese medicine. My field is licensed. And, like, I had to take a board exam. I have to do continue education. I have malpractice insurance. Like, we should all be more worried about practitioners who don't have to have malpractice insurance, right? If I were a nutritionist or just a coach, like, even as a hypnotherapist, like, that's not a licensed and regulated industry.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:41:43

So there's this gradation of, like, how we can even enter a field, right? But I can wake up tomorrow and call myself a nutritionist because that's not a regulated industry. And that's. So that's a piece of information I want to scream far and loud. Like, just because somebody calls themselves something doesn't technically mean anything depending on what the industry is. So, like, we want to find out more about that person's credentials, their education, their experience. Like, what have they been through? Because we can have super helpful practitioners who don't have those licenses, right? Like, people are totally helped by people who have no license and people are harmed by people who do have a license. So it's not like a black and white sort of thing, but they're things we want to be really aware of when we're looking into purchasing something or signing up with somebody, whatever it is, the next piece we want to look at is like simply that. Like, how do I feel aspect of it? Do I feel like I'm going to miss out? Am I super excited? Am I anxious? Am I fearful? Is this person speaking in these black and white terms? Whatever it is, and basically, anytime we have those feelings, positive or negative, where there's a big reaction in us, that's a sign we want to start bookmarking.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:43:01

Like, I feel excited. Red flag. And it's not necessarily a red flag, right? We can be excited, but red flag means stop. It means stop. It means slow down. It means pay more attention. Look into this person more deeply. Go google them.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:43:18

Go look at their Google reviews. Does their website even say where they went to school? Like, if it doesn't, to me that's a red flag because we're, like, hiding stuff. So it doesn't always mean, like, this thing's going to be bad, but it means that we really need to do our due diligence to, like, find all the pieces, ask the questions you want to ask. They're like, you have to sign up tomorrow or you're never going to get to sign up. Like, okay, bye. For me, that's off to the no, because I'm like, I'm not making that decision under that pressure because my head's not straight around, like, seeing the whole picture. Another thing I look out for is the personal story of the practitioner. So in a lot of cases, I saw one.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:44:03

Maybe it was a description for a podcast, and the person was like, I healed from stage four cancer without doing chemotherapy. Like, good for you, but that's not the whole story, right? Like, maybe chemotherapy wasn't even the recommended thing to do for that type of cancer. We do a surgery, radiation, that person did do that. So we don't know the whole story. But a story, a personal healing story, is not applicable to you basically ever. Like, it might tell us that that person can understand our situation and have empathy towards us or, like, know what it feels like to be in our situation. But their success with their product or their method or whatever it is, is not applicable to you most of the time because their body's not yours. So for me, that's like, not a selling point at all.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:44:52

Like, good for you. You've been through it. But that tells me, like, I still want to know more about it. Is that method customizable is another great question, right? Because not everything's going to work for you. Like, I have an allergy to flaxseeds. I can't do most of the cleanses and things out there because they all contain flaxseed seeds. So, like, how is this going to be customizable to me? Because I can't literally ingest it. So those are things we want to look at.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:45:19

Like, it sounds too good to be true. Like, maybe it is, but definitely we need to look more deeply into it. And usually that's. That's going to be the key thing. To, like, really keep us safe is, like, becoming aware of how our body reacts to the story, to the marketing, to the prospect of the cure or the idea, and doing steps to regulate ourselves. Taking the step back, looking more deeply into it, doing our research about this person, just calming the whole thing down. Right. We're taking it from a ten to a two, and then we're making a choice about it.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:45:57

And, you know, like, a lot of this is very parallel to how we understand cults and coercive control and mind control and things like that. Black and white thinking, all or nothing mentality is a big one that shows up here. And that's, like, all doctors are bad, you should never go to them. Or only natural medicine is the best thing. You should only do that. On the flip side, it's natural medicine is terrible, and it's a total waste of your money. Like, we both know both of those things aren't true statements. We want to find the people who understand that and who toe the line between it, right? Like, we can do this and we can do this.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:46:33

They're not either ors. And where are you at in your journey? Right? Is there no cure and no treatment available to you? Well, then your medical doctors are probably not helping you very much. Maybe they're keeping you comfortable. Maybe there is nothing. Maybe we do want to do that last ditch effort to, like, try something that seems crazy and see what happens. Like, that would be more of a recommendation when we're in that situation. If we have a frontline therapy that's like, can we cure this 90% of the time by doing this x, y, and z in the hospital? That's probably. We want to seriously consider that in preference to, like, trying all these other things.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:47:13

And then finally, like, because what's easy to do is, like, this snowballs really quickly. We sign up for one thing. There's, like, a diet and herbs and x, y and z, and then we learn about something else, and we sign up for that. And we see it all the time. Like, in the clinic where it's like, somebody's coming to me, then they're going to another acupuncturist, and they're going to another herbalist, and we're getting herbal formulas from every single person. Like, I won't give a person a formula if they're already on something where, you know, you're throwing the whole kitchen sink at things, which is usually pretty counterproductive. Right. But that's where we wind up in that stress space.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:47:53

Like, we need to kind of do some check ins with ourselves along this process. I can say, okay, is this making me feel better? Is it helping? Am I testing things along the way to check? I had a patient recently, I had to give her permission to fire her nutritionist, and she was on a very strict elimination diet. And, like, those are things we do to find out if we're allergic to something or having a reaction. You do that diet for three months, nothing changes. The nutritionist's recommendation was to do it for another three months. The recommendation there is, it's not food that's causing the problem. Right. We know that she was very good at the diet that she was doing.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:48:35

So how much is this helping? How much is it stressing you out? How much is it stressing out your bank account? All these different pieces we really want to put into play. And I would say if we're trying something out, we want to give it like, three months, maybe six. And if you're doing this and you're doing it really diligently and you're checking all the boxes, everything is perfect and nothing is changing. Like, that's a sign we need to let it go. And that's where, like, exit costs is a piece of cult stuff, too. It's not that you can't leave. It's that there's a high exit cost to leaving. And so with wellness, it's often, like, sunk cost fallacy.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:49:14

Spent all this money, I spent all this time. I want to keep going because I'm invested, and yet this isn't producing the result we want. In summary, like, only make decisions about things when you feel really regulated. We're not excited. We're not fear of missing out. We're not, like, jumping. We're not afraid. We're in that regulated space.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:49:36

Check about people's credentials, education, whatever. For me, like, maybe that's not required that they have a doctorate degree, but their transparency is required. How easily do they answer those questions and communicate with you and then finally, like, being more okay with just pulling the plug on it when it's not working for you, like, it's okay to let it go. We can try something else. You don't have to do only one thing at a time. You don't have to do ten things at a time. But we want to consistently check in with ourselves. Maybe that's like once a month or something, like making that time, keeping a journal about it.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:50:16

Like, is this helping? Is it stressing me out? Whatever's going on so that we really approach it from that more regulated space?

Boots Knighton [: 00:50:25

Such wisdom in this conversation, and I know so many listeners, this is going to help. Thank you so much. In my summary, I would say just have an incredible amount of self grace and watch how you're talking to yourself as you navigate the medical system and navigate being on social media. Part of a well balanced diet is what you choose to take in on your phone, on your computer, and the tv and magazines. And so be mindful of what you're consuming as far as information and what that does to your nervous system as well.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:51:11

Totally, yeah.

Boots Knighton [: 00:51:13

Doctor Kim Pirano, I cannot thank you enough for your time today. How do listeners find you? And obviously I'll have it in the show notes, but you want to verbally tell us how we can find you to work with you?

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:51:27

Absolutely. You can find me most of the places. My practice name is courage to transform. So it's courage couragetotransform.com on Instagram as well, and TikTok. And yeah, you can find kind of all my links and those things. I have a Facebook page too, but I never use it. And if anybody's ever interested in like coaching or hypnotherapy, which I do online, I offer free discovery calls so we can just have a chat and see if this might be good for you.

Boots Knighton [: 00:52:00

Yeah.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:52:01

Yeah.

Boots Knighton [: 00:52:01

Well, I hope that this recording is, you know, a great introductory to you and I hope listeners will take advantage of your wisdom because it really, it's been incredible talking to you and I, it's helped me kind of, what's the word I'm looking for? Like button up a few curiosities I was still having about how I've approached my whole journey. So thank you very much. It's going to give me a lot to think about this afternoon once I stop and have a minute to think. So thank you so much for your time today.

Dr. Kim Peirano [: 00:52:37

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Boots Knighton [: 00:52:39

Hey heart buddies, thank you for sharing a few beads of your day with me today. Please be sure to follow or subscribe subscribe to this podcast wherever you are listening. Also be sure to share with a friend who will value what we discussed. Additionally, I love your feedback. It is so encouraging when I hear from you listeners and it helps me continue to put out good content that I know you want to hear. So be sure to drop me an email at boots@theheartchamberpodcast.com again, I am your host, bootsnighton and thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in next Tuesday for another episode on open heart Surgery with Boots.